K2 Interviews: Getting Official with Nick Lembo

The guy with the big smile on his face between Renzo Gracie and Ricardo Almeida is Nick Lembo.

Lembo is legal counsel for the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board (NJSACB), a position that has put in him at cage-side for numerous events and landed him seats on various committees concerned with Mixed Martial Arts, including serving as the head of the Association of Boxing Commissioners MMA committee.

With a resume like that, you can understand my surprise when I received an email from Mr. Lembo discussing the merits of an article I’d written on referee stoppages following UFC 102. Clearly, this was a man who could share some knowledge on two of the most debated topics in Mixed Martial Arts: refereeing and judging.

Earlier this week, Mr. Lembo and I traded emails discussing everything from what constitutes a 10-8 round and the training involved with becoming a referee, to the recent Sean Salmon controversy and Jersey's own Frankie Edgar.

This is the K2 Interview Series ... with Nick Lembo.

Thanks so much for agreeing to do this.

If you could, explain to the readers exactly what your position entails?

In short, with the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board, and with regard to professional and amateur mixed martial arts, I have always been responsible for approving contests, assigning officials, training officials and conducting weigh-ins.

With the Association of Boxing Commissions, I chair, have chaired, or sit on, committees involving mixed martial arts rules, match making, gloves and officials training.

Our first interaction came following an article I wrote about the Chris Leben – Jake Rosholt fight at UFC 102 and the precarious position referees are in where they are in a no-win situation.

First off, what were your thoughts on the fight, should it have been stopped?

I always prefer that fights are stopped a little sooner than later.

The referee in that particular fight, Yves Lavigne, has come under a great deal of scrutiny lately for some difficult decisions inside the cage, most notably his performance at UFC 96 in the Matt Brown vs. Pete Sell fight.

What happens to a referee in a situation like there where they openly admit to making a mistake and it’s obvious to everyone that an error was made?

Yves made a mistake but bounced right back that same night and handled the high profile main event extremely well. No referee in this sport, has, or ever will be, perfect. Every referee so far has had their share of controversies and errors.

No referee who works enough will ever work without a controversy. You have to look at a referee’s full body of work and their overall performance.

I’ve read elsewhere a quote where you said you’d much rather “talk about a fight that was stopped too early than a fight that was stopped too late.”

While I certainly share that opinion, there have been some fights in the last six months that many believed were stopped early and I’d like to get your take on them.

Aaron Riley and Shane Nelson from UFC 96?

Stopped early

Kyle Bradley and Philippe Nover from UFC 98?

Did not see it

Johny Hendricks and Amir Sadollah from UFC 101?

No issue with the stoppage

We both agree that the referees in this sport are in a tough position; whether they stop a fight too early or too late in the eyes of the public, they are criticized.

Is it just a matter of further educating the fans to not only the sport, but also the reasoning behind stoppages?

The referee is in the best position to view the fighter and assess his/her condition. The referee is not being influenced by the crowd or the commentator.

The referee is not involved as a fan and is not interested in how thrilling the fight is. The referee is there to enforce the rules and ensure the health and safety of the competitors.

Can you explain what “intelligently defending yourself” involves? We hear the term used so many times, but many fans may not be clear on what it entails.

Intelligently defending yourself means:

• Can the fighter defend himself from an offensive attack any longer?
• Can the fighter fight back or protect himself and eventually counter or escape?

Obviously, it is subjective, and a trained referee is in the best position to make this assessment. There is a point in some fights where the bout is no longer competitive and one fighter is at imminent risk of serious potential harm. This is a sport, not a spectacle.

So, before getting around to some more insightful and investigative journalism-type questions, what’s the best fight you’ve ever seen, live or otherwise?

In person-
May 4, 2001 UFC 31: Randy Couture vs. Pedro Rizzo, Atlantic City, NJ and August 15, 2003 Ring of Combat 4: Pete Sell vs. Chris Liguori, Secaucus, NJ

On television-
June 24, 1998 Pride 3 Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Carlos Newton, Tokyo, Japan

Alright, back to trying to win a Pulitzer.

How do we improve judging in Mixed Martial Arts?

Start with training seminars for individuals with appropriate martial arts backgrounds. Then have them “shadow” judge at amateur events; have them judge hundreds of amateur fights over several years.

Then, have them start at a small show in the pros alongside two very experienced judges. Consistently review and assess their performances and review any controversial scores with them.

Is the 10 Point Must system the best way to do things or should we move to a different style of judging, perhaps assessing the fight as a whole if it goes the distance as they used to do back in the days of Pride?

No scoring system will ever be perfect as it has to be applied appropriately by the judges, and some subjective viewpoints will always be present. I believe that the 10 point must system is fine, when applied correctly.

A fight resulting in a draw is very rare, despite the fact that many fights would be described by fans as “too close to call.” Is there a hesitance on the part of judges to score a fight a draw?

Judges are scoring fights on a round by round basis. They are able to score a round 10-10 if that is how they see it.

I have seen fights in New Jersey that resulted in draws. Draws are rare because it is more likely that one fighter edged their opponent in the majority of the rounds.

In your professional opinion, what constitutes a 10-8 round?

When one contestant overwhelmingly dominates by striking or grappling in a round [and/or] when one fighter is dominant and causes damage to the opponent.

What kind of training or education do these judges go through before taking their seats outside the cage, as there are clearly a great deal of differences in MMA from boxing where a number of these judges originate?

I touched on this already.

In New Jersey, you must first attend a general officials seminar. You must have a martial arts background. You start as an amateur inspector.

After a judges seminar, you can begin to act as a shadow judge. As a shadow judge, you sit next to each judge and score the fight, but your scores do not count. Your scores will be reviewed.

Then, you may get the opportunity to judge at amateur fights. There are periodic training seminars.

After spending significant time in the amateurs, you may get a shot as a professional judge on a small show.

Backtracking for a second if we could, what kind of training and certification do the referees go through?

It is very difficult to become either an amateur or professional mixed martial arts referee in New Jersey. We have only used about 15 professional and amateur referees in the last 9 years.

You have to have an appropriate martial arts background. You have to attend training seminars. You have to work all the other positions before becoming a referee.

Is it something that has to be maintained over specific intervals like CPR or is it a case of one you’re in, you’re in?

Specific intervals.

Well-known referee “Big” John McCarthy has launched a program he calls C.O.M.M.A.N.D. – Certification of Officials for Mixed Martial Arts National Development.

Have you had a chance to see any of the training materials, attend any of the sessions or speak with McCarthy at all about the program and if so, what are your thoughts?

Is it something we could see becoming universally recognized and used to certify and accredit all MMA referees?

I am familiar with the C.O.M.M.A.N.D. program and have sat for a two day presentation by John McCarthy last year in Montreal.

I believe that training and refreshers are an essential part of officiating. However, you could take 10 training courses and still not perform well under the pressure of a live event. I don’t want the best test-taker, I want the best individual that can perform under fire.

I recommend that you become proficient in arts like jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling. Then, act as a referee in your gym’s sparring and training sessions.

Next, try refereeing at some grappling matches. At the same time, take some training courses. Then, try to get your start at an amateur event.

Try to develop a relationship with an experienced referee and learn from them.

You've become involved in the recent Sean Salmon situation. What are your thoughts on what Salmon said and if you were to decide his fate, what sort of punishment would you levy?

Salmon deserves the opportunity to be heard at a formal hearing prior to deciding his fate. It would be premature to decide without hearing from him directly in a formal setting.

The NSAC recently gave the thumbs up to both the use of instant replay and the possibility of five-round non-title fights. What are your thoughts on each?

New Jersey has had instant replay since December 2006 and I am in favor of it. We used it once.

I’m not sure how I feel about five round non-title fights; I think a true title fight should offer something different, like the customary extra two rounds.

Once again I’ll stop with the third degree and move to something a little less intense.

How long before Frankie Edgar gets a title shot?

Frankie may be on his way to a title shot, but that is up to the UFC management, not me.

Frankie is a good example of the extremely tough “club” show circuit in New Jersey having fought Jim Miller, Deividas Taurosevicius, Jay Isip and Mark Getto in his first few fights before he ever left the State.

If you could fight anyone - past or present - who would and be and who would be the winner?

I am a regulator, not a fighter.

If you could play matchmaker for one day, regardless of organizational ties or anything like that, what three fights would you make and why?

Believe it or not, I prefer to watch fighters develop and mature in our amateur program and go professional, more than watching so-called dream fights.

Anyone you want to say hi to? We are guaranteed to reach at least 47 people…

Hello to all the fighters from years ago who paved the way for the sport to become as big as it is today.

Thanks so much for doing this.

Photo courtesy of Ricardo Almeida Jiu-Jitsu
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Fighter Safety Falls on Everyone

Yesterday, we discussed the Yves Lavigne fallout from UFC 102 and the precarious position that referees are in when officiating MMA bouts.

One very interesting thought that came to me at the close of yesterday's article was the strange double standard in place where referees are criticized for their action or in-action, while fighters are praised for fighting until the bell, even when that means throwing an unnecessary blow or two.

The question for today is: Shouldn't fighter safety fall on everyone, the fighters included?

Much to my friend and colleague Katrina Belcher's dismay, I once again turn to the Dan Henderson's fight against Michael Bisping at UFC 100 to begin this discussion.

By now everyone has seen the clips and heard the comments; Hendo landed a deadly right hand to Bisping's jaw, knocking him out cold before following his fallen opponent to the mat with an additional forearm to the head.

While many will say that fighters are taught to keep going until the ref stops you, and cite things like football where you "play to the whistle," Henderson himself admitted that it was an unnecessary blow, intended "to shut him up."

Conversely, UFC 102 gave us a terrific example of restraint and intelligence in the form of Nathan Marquardt.

Just 20 seconds into his fight with Demian Maia, the former King of Pancrase landed a deadly right hand that sent the jiu jitsu ace spinning in the air before crashing to the mat face-first. Marquardt stood over his opponent, fist clenched, ready to deliver another blow, but stopped himself.

Some have called this a mistake, saying Marquardt would look like a fool if Demian Maia had rolled into a kneebar and ended the fight.

Exactly how many times have we seen fighters get drilled in the jaw, spin in the air, land on their head and roll into a kneebar to end a fight?

Marquardt knew his opponent was finished and saw no reason to inflict more punishment and should be applauded for his class, restraints and protecting his fellow fighter.

We criticize the referees when fights go on too long, shouting about fighter safety, but disregard that same stance when we think fights are stopped too early.

And why is fighter safety the sole responsibility of the referee?

Each man or woman who takes that ring should have concern for the other people in the ring, and for the most part they do.

That is why you see the victor go over and check on their fallen opponent more often than not, and why restraint like Nate Marquardt showed should be applauded.

Delivering another strike to a clearly dazed Maia wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight; Maia was already out and Marquardt knew that, so why throw another punch just because the referee hasn't jumped in front of you?

Dan Henderson has been fighting long enough to know that he can knock people out with his right hand.

Everyone watching that fight knew Dan Henderson could knock people out with his right hand, except for maybe Michael Bisping.

So when Hendo connected and Bisping fell to the ground like a sack of potatoes, the former Pride champion should be acutely aware that his British counterpart wasn't going to get back up.

While the referee may not have been in position to "save" Bisping at that time, a small part of Henderson should also be thinking about saving Bisping from any further injury, not landing one more shot to shut him up.

Though clearly within the rules, Henderson himself later acknowledged it was not needed, cutting the legs out from under anyone who wants to argue differently, though I know you still will... and I like that.

Matt Hughes released an armbar on Royce Gracie back when they met at UFC 60, knowing Gracie would not tap and he would have to break the legend's arm. He still went on to win the fight in dominant fashion, and Gracie had use of both arms.

Matt Brown looked at Lavigne in amazement when his fight with Pete Sell wasn't initially stopped, knowing Sell was done and not seeing any reason to continue the beatdown.

In both these instances, the fighters showed care for the safety and well-being of their opponent and it didn't diminish their performance one bit.

Additionally, there is a great difference between a hurt opponent and a beaten opponent.

Scott Smith was hurt when Pete Sell drilled him in the ribs; he wasn't on the mat, he wasn't verbally submitting. He was buckled over in pain and went right back to that position after dropping Sell with a now legendary right.

In his UFC 101 match against Anderson Silva, Forrest Griffin was beaten and looked out for his own safety by tapping.

While some speak ill of tapping as if it is a sign of weakness, Griffin knew he was done and didn't want to take any more punishment. You can call him whatever names you want for tapping; I applaud him for knowing when he'd had enough and protecting himself accordingly.

Chris Leben should have taken the same route on Saturday night, knowing Jake Rosholt's arm triangle was tight and he wasn't going to escape. But Leben said after the fight that he'd "never tap in his hometown" or something along those lines.

Apparently getting choked unconscious and convulsing on the canvas is more noble than admitting defeat and protecting yourself.

There is no question that referees have to act in the best interest of the fighters and have their safety as their primary concern.

But the onus isn't just on them.

The fighters need to protect themselves, and their opponents.

Maybe that's why they always seem to say that when fighters meet in the center of the ring...


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Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Yves Lavigne, Referee Stoppages and Armchair Analysis

While a great deal of the discussions stemming from UFC 102 have centered around the return to form of Minotauro Nogueira, Randy Couture's "never say die" showing and Todd Duffee's record-setting knockout, Yves Lavigne is getting his share of attention too.

Many are questioning Lavigne's indecision in the ring when Jake Rosholt had a very tight arm triangle choke on Chris Leben. "The Crippler" appeared to tap weakly, Lavigne started to move in to stop the fight and then stopped when Leben's legs bucked towards the referee. Seconds later, he was out cold, Lavigne jumped in and the hold was released.

Then Leben began to convulse on the canvas.

Seeing a fighter twitch on the mat is never a pretty sight and obvious concern for their safety mounts. In this case, people looking to cast blame turn to Lavigne, a referee who has had some tough calls in recent memory that certainly don't help the situation.

Everyone remembers his stop-start routine from the UFC 96, where Pete Sell looked to be finished, but Lavigne "restarted" the fight before waving things off shortly thereafter. That same night, many questioned a different referee's decision when a seemingly early stoppage awarded Shane Nelson a quick win over Aaron Riley.

Therein lies the problem: No matter what these referees do, people are going to question their decisions.

Don't get in there early enough, you're endangering fighters livelihood and well-being.

Get in there too soon and you're depriving the paying customers of what they came to see in the first place and not giving the fighters a chance.

The only way a referee remains unscathed is if there is an unquestionable finish or the final bell sounds. Everything else is put under a microscope and scrutinized by hundreds of people, all of whom have an opinion on the events from the comfort of their living rooms and computer desks, myself included.

Interestingly enough, there was a non-call on that same card that merits some discussion, at least in the eyes of Watch Kalib Run's Zak Woods.

On the most recent WKR Cage Cast recapping UFC 102, Woods questioned whether referee Mario Yamasaki could have jumped in and stopped the main event when Randy Couture was mounted and clearly taking a great deal of punishment.

Though Couture eventually got back to guard and continued in the bout, he wonders whether a little extra lenience was afforded in this bout simply because it was Randy Couture taking the punishment, and it's hard not to understand where he is coming from.

There is no denying that there is room for improvement in the refereeing of Mixed Martial Arts fights, just as there is similar room in the officiating of most sports.

Legendary referee "Big" John McCarthy has introduced his COMMAND training program to help in this regard, which, along with continued experience and exposure, will hopefully result in better officiating.

But the naked truth is that referees are going to make mistakes.

They will stop fights too soon and let some continue on when they shouldn't. Unfortunately, it is the nature of the beast, and something that will never be 100% resolved.

For the most part, these men and women perform admirably in a thankless position where the only time they receive recognition is when countless people who wouldn't want to switch places with them feel they made a mistake.

Saturday night, Yves Lavigne fell under the microscope of public scrutiny; he let the fight continue for three seconds too long and didn't trust his natural instinct.

Some are calling for his job, while others are talking about the potential of deaths in the ring if similar situations occur in the future.

I'd just ask that those same people keep this in mind the next time they think a referee stops a fight too early.

One thing that maybe only I find interesting in all this:

Guys can beat their opponents into bloody messes, knock them out cold and even break their appendages, usually to a chorus of cheers. Dan Henderson delivers a clearly unnecessary forearm to the head of a fallen Michael Bisping and it's okay, because it was in the heat of the moment and you have to keep going until the fight is stopped.

Yet these referees make one mistake either way and people are calling for their careers and throwing them under the bus in the name of fighter safety, risk of injuries or perhaps even worse.

Somewhere in there lies a double standard that we'll tackle tomorrow.

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